Posts by jonathan dough

6

Response to DF Action - Letter in Response

by Simon Morley in

jw
friends

a few months ago i saw a letter format in reponse to potential df'ing.

i read it and thought it was great but never saved it - it looks like i will need it - sometime soon.

could someobody post the body of that letter format so i can give it to my lawyer and also, has anybody had success with the letter staving off any action by the jc such as annoiuncements?

jonathan dough

Try this one, though you really don't have a case if you read the Barbara Anderson decision. It's just hot air but it might keep them quiet.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/184645/1/Lawyer-Letter-copy-to-Judicial-Committee

8

Nature of God; history of triad gods; monotheism; validity of long standing beliefs

by In in

i'd love to hear more from the scholars on the site here.

i've done some reading, but can't really sort it out myself and don't have much time for research.. the question is (after reading the proskenuo thread): if jesus is part of a triad god, i'd like to know how far back triad god's go in terms of human history?.

is there any evidence in the old testament for a triad god?

jonathan dough

bttt

8

Nature of God; history of triad gods; monotheism; validity of long standing beliefs

by In in

i'd love to hear more from the scholars on the site here.

i've done some reading, but can't really sort it out myself and don't have much time for research.. the question is (after reading the proskenuo thread): if jesus is part of a triad god, i'd like to know how far back triad god's go in terms of human history?.

is there any evidence in the old testament for a triad god?

jonathan dough

'Nother question: What purpose did it originally serve for the Society to oppose traditional Christian beliefs like the Trinity and hell? Sure, you can tell you lots of reasons now that its established, but why'd Russell ever start in the first place?

It's the work of Satan. JWs deny the real Christ of the NT, are anti-christ in the extreme, deny their Great Crowd access to salvation and the Bible directly, and in general turn real Christianity on its head. They keep God's people from gaining access to heaven, and have devoted their lives to denying true Christian faith. They denigrate the Almighty and the Messiah when they claim that Jesus was nothing more than a man, which is exactly what Pontious Pilate said. These are spiritual issues. The Society has profited enormously beginning with the works of Russell, and dominated man to his injury. By taking over people's minds and compromising their spiritual integrity, they keep people from accessing and knowing the true God and truth in general. In general, they are wrong about everything, and are very, very dangerous. Although some can be very nice.

Proof: http://www.144000.110mb.com/

47

Can JW's run the New System without worldly people?

by moshe in

jw
friends

http://www.history.com/content/life_after_people/about-the-series.

i get a chuckle when i watch that show on tuesday nights as it portrays what would happen the the world, if people should all dissapear.

since jw's are only 2/10% of the world's population and almost zero% in many countries the infrastructure would rapidly decay.

jonathan dough

I hope we all realize that we're speaking only hypothetically. Armageddon isn't coming, pals. Ever.

"Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come [to] scoff, living according to their own desires and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning." 2 Peter 3:3,4

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#intro

8

Nature of God; history of triad gods; monotheism; validity of long standing beliefs

by In in

i'd love to hear more from the scholars on the site here.

i've done some reading, but can't really sort it out myself and don't have much time for research.. the question is (after reading the proskenuo thread): if jesus is part of a triad god, i'd like to know how far back triad god's go in terms of human history?.

is there any evidence in the old testament for a triad god?

jonathan dough

First, if by triad God you mean that trinitarians believe in 3 gods, well, that's just not true. They don't believe in that. ANYONE, like the JWs, who teaches that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God Almighty is 3 gods is wrong. Worse than wrong, but a liar. And we know who is the father of the lie.

Christian Trinitarians are monotheistic and do not worship three Gods as the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim.

The Jehovah's Witnesses continue to imply that Trinitarian Christians worship three Gods, not one; that they are tritheistic, not monotheistic. The Jehovah's Witnesses draw parallels between the Trinity doctrine and triadic pagan worship which they claim is the ultimate source of the Christian Trinity, influenced by Babylonian gods who were worshipped in threes, the Egyptian three-fold gods of Osiris, Isis and Horus, Italian triune godheads, the Trinitarian Hindu group of Brahama, Sira and Visnu, and on and on (Should You Believe, Chapter 5).

But this is false and unfair. The Christian faith is completely monotheistic, and worship is directed to the only one true God Almighty who happens to have a threefold nature: “We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity,” (Catholic Catechism, 75). “[T]he Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND16)” (ibid., 79).

Tritheism, the worship of three Gods at the expense of the unity of God is yet another pitfall which the Trinity doctrine specifically seeks to avoid (Oxford, 1211). And simply because the Jehovah's Witnesses are unable to grasp the meaning of “hypostases” or “Persons” does not entitle them to ascribe to Christians beliefs they do not hold.

Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean by Jesus being "part of" a triad god. The triune God is one, and before creation existed in three hypostases, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (immanent Trinity). Jesus is God-man, the hypostatic union, the Word (Second Person of the Trinity) incarnate, a divine person who assumed a human nature. The humanity of Christ, the creature, Jesus, is not God the Almighty. This is orthodox Christianity. If you believe that Christendom teaches that Jesus the human creature is God, then that is completely wrong also, another lie perpetuated by the Society.

In most formularies the doctrine is stated by saying that God is one in His essential being, but that in this being there are three Persons, yet so as not to form separate and distinct individuals. They are three modes or forms in which the divine essence exists. ‘Person’ is, however, an imperfect expression of the truth in as much as the term denotes to us a separate rational and moral individual. But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self-distinctions within the one divine essence. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)

“The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopeda, 922). Jesus is a divine person who assumed a human nature. If you're truely interested you can get more information here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

Is there any evidence in the Old Testament for a triad God? What about other Jewish texts?

The evidence is meager, but Trinitarian patterns are evident in the OT. Read more here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-4.html#18

47

Can JW's run the New System without worldly people?

by moshe in

jw
friends

http://www.history.com/content/life_after_people/about-the-series.

i get a chuckle when i watch that show on tuesday nights as it portrays what would happen the the world, if people should all dissapear.

since jw's are only 2/10% of the world's population and almost zero% in many countries the infrastructure would rapidly decay.

jonathan dough

There is no new system as they envision it.

Proof: http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

20

i need HELP debunking the HOLY SPIRIT

by Smoky in

i have a family jw friend spending two nights a week at my place, because of school... last night we had a discussion regarding my fading and i should come back, talk.

we covered many topics.

but i need to get him on that the holy spirit is not only in the jw just because they preach allot.. can anyone help.

jonathan dough

This might help clarify things, from http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

The Holy Spirit is the divine third Person of the Holy Trinity

The Holy Spirit was joined with Father and Son as one God by Christian writers very early in the first millennium [St. Clement of Rome (c. 95); St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. 107)], but the Holy Spirit did not gain official recognition by the church as being divine and part of the Trinity until Constantinople I. Early Christian theologians in search of a deeper understanding of God’s nature and the works of the Holy Spirit “gradually made more explicit that which was contained only implicitly” in Scripture (Catholic Encyclopedia, 96).

As explained, the Jehovah's Witnesses reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is a Person or hypostasis, and teach that it is nothing more than God’s active force, “likened to electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations” (Should You Believe, Chapter 8). This interpretation, however, is wrong.

First, it is true that in the Old Testament God’s Spirit is primarily referred to as a power used to create and influence men’s souls and minds like Moses, David or the prophets either temporarily or permanently (Catholic Encyclopedia, 574). It would teach, guide and eventually affect a moral transformation of mankind under the future New Covenant (ibid.). “The OT clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God’s spirit is simply God’s power” (ibid.).

In the New Testament, however, the Spirit of God is both a power and a Person (ibid., 575). The Jehovah's Witnesses regard the supporting verses as mutually exclusive - the Spirit must be either a power or a person, and since it can’t be a person it must be a power. However, Scripture read together cannot accept one meaning at the expense of another, so, as indicated in Strong and Vine’s the power is the “Power of the Holy Spirit” (at 162), which is the Spirit of God (Romans 9:8-11 RSV), and Jehovah (or Lord RSV) is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT). The Holy Spirit is not simply an inert unthinking electrical current flowing from Jehovah God. It is a powerful spirit Person.

“The revelation that the Spirit of God is a Person is gradual” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 575). The majority of NT texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone… (ibid.), but “in the Synoptic Gospels [the Trinitarian formula in Mt. 28.19] clearly speaks of the person of the Holy Spirit.” So even though in most cases “the phrase ‘spirit of God’ reflects the OT notion of “the power of God,” as a result of the teaching of Christ, the definite personality of the Third Person of the Trinity is clear” (ibid.).

In the Acts of the Apostles the Spirit’s personality is not overtly demonstrated in the texts although “[t]he statement in Acts 15.28, “the Holy Spirit and we have decided,” alone seems to imply full personality” (ibid., 575). Paul uses the [Greek word for spirit] 146 times. Sometimes it means man’s natural spirit, but more often it signifies the divine sanctifying power (2 Cor 3.17-18; Gal 4.6; Phil 1.19). However, the Trinitarian formulas employed by St. Paul (e.g., 2 Cor 13.13), indicate a real personality” (ibid., 575).

The personality of the Holy Spirit is very obvious in the theology of the apostle John and is “very rich in meaning” (ibid.).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth (Jn 14.17; 15.26; 16.13; cf. 1 Jn 4.6; 5.6), and “another helper,” the “paraclete” (Jn 14.16). The Spirit is “another” helper because, after Christ’s Ascension, he takes Christ’s place in assisting the disciples, in teaching them all that Jesus himself had not yet told them, in revealing the future to them, in recalling to their minds that which Jesus had taught them, in giving testimony concerning Jesus, and in glorifying Him (14.26; 16.12-16; 15.26; 1 Jn 2.27; 5.6). (Catholic Encyclopedia, 575)

The New Testament contains many additional references to attributes of the Holy Spirit that indicate personality such as “speaking, hindering, desiring [or] dwelling (Acts 8.29; 16.7; Rom 8.9)” (ibid., 575). Granted, taken in and of themselves one should not automatically identify them as personality traits because “the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom 8.6; 7.17).” However, in light of the above verses that clearly identify the Holy Spirit as a Person, other activities of a personal nature reinforce the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal “it” - and most certainly not an electrical current, or a mere “figure of speech.”

Thus, the Person of the Holy Spirit speaks (Acts 28:25), teaches (John 15:26), strives with sinners (Genesis 6:3), comforts (Acts 9:31), helps our infirmities (Rom 8:26), is grieved (Eph 4:30) and is resisted (Acts 7:51) (Strong and Vine’s, 95, Supplement).

Secondly, the Jehovah's Witnesses reason that “[t]he Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father - Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit” (Reasoning, 407). The weakness in this argument lies in the fact that Scripture does not disclose the personal name of the pre-incarnate Word either (John 1:1) and since Jesus is not an archangel, the Word’s name cannot be Michael as they claim (see section 46 ). In line with the Jehovah's Witnesses’ logic the Word was not a Spirit person either because we don’t know His name (based on their assumption that the Word is completely separate from God), but we know that to be untrue. Neither are we told all of the personal names of all angelic spirit and demonic forces but that does not establish their impersonal natures or prove they don’t exist.

Third, the Jehovah's Witnesses argue further that “Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit (see also Revelation 7:10; 22:13)” (Reasoning, 407). But this ignores the fact that the Holy Spirit has manifested itself visibly as a dove and flames of fire in the past, and is spirit and unseen to the eye in the unaltered form. Just because we don’t see angels or the Almighty does not mean they don’t exist.

Also, the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, falsely, that the Second Coming of Christ, the parousia, occurred in 1914 A.D. and that Jesus is present among us today although invisible. According to their way of thinking then, Jesus is not a person either because he can’t be seen. Remember, God Almighty is an invisible spirit (Colossians 1:15) so the Jehovah's Witnesses should be careful in placing too much literal emphasis on Stephen’s “vision” of God in heaven, or the accompanying Spirit which, after all, is spirit.

Fourth, the personal nature of the Holy Spirit is further illustrated by Jesus’ reference to the Holy Spirit as a “helper” or “advocate” (Greek paraclete) who would teach, guide and speak (John 14:16, 26; 16:13). Even though Jesus used the masculine personal pronoun with reference to the Holy Spirit, the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus was referring to an “it” when He called the advocate “he” or “him.” They write:

Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper,” and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (pa-ra’kle-tos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneumatic) is used, the neuter pronoun “it” is properly employed.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’
So, when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa-ra-kle-tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8)

It should first be noted that since the New American Bible “admits” the Greek word for Spirit is neuter they’re not hiding that fact at all. And what the current New American Bible actually states is that “While it has been customary to use masculine personal pronouns in English for the Advocate, the Greek word for “spirit” is neuter, and the Greek text and manuscript variants fluctuate between the masculine and neuter pronouns” (NAB notes John 14:17). Therefore, there is no grammatical prohibition against referring to the Holy Spirit as “he” or “him” versus “it.” It can be either/or.

A literal rendering of “he” at John 15:26 is “that one” (Greek ekeinos), and should not be translated as a gender-neutral “it.” According to Strong and Vine’s, “ekeinos denotes “that one, that person”; its use marks special distinction, favorable or unfavorable; this form of emphasis should always be noted;…” (Strong and Vine’s, 80). Thus, the Jehovah's Witnesses have it backwards. The “it” is a “he” or a “him,” a Person, not the other way around.

This is further illustrated by 1 John 2:1, which the Jehovah's Witnesses forgot to bring to your attention in their publication “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” There, John refers to Jesus as an advocate/helper or paraclete also. It provides in relevant part “And if anyone sins, we have an advocate (paracletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (Green’s Literal Translation).

Thus, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are referred to as advocate/comforter/helper (paraclete) yet according to the Jehovah's Witnesses’ rules of grammar Jesus is not a person but a gender-neutral “it.” For that matter, Jehovah who can’t be proven to be male or female would also be an “it” although clearly personified as “Him” and “Father” throughout the Bible. That goes for angels as well who, though being gender-neutral are similarly regarded as spirit persons, not electrical currents. The Holy Spirit is the paraclete, the advocate, the counselor and comforter, and in the relevant context a “Person” (hypostasis); the third Person of the Holy Trinity.

Fifth, 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11 illustrates a distinctiveness of the Holy Spirit compared to God (though not independent of God), and an intellectual ability to probe the thoughts of God, something a current of electricity is most likely not capable of doing.

For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

10

Who or what was Jesus?

by highdose in

given the up coming season i thought this would be a good disscussion.. do you belive that jesus was real?

the son of god?.

a religous cruesader of his day?.

jonathan dough

God-man, and most certainly not just a man as the JWs teach.

Let the church explain it:

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#5

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

31

The Trinity, the biblical case, clear and simple.

by Chalam in

hi jwners,.

i watched dave brown and peter price on this youtube channel recently.

it was excellent so i made a note to check out some of the other programs.. anyhow, i have been watching this one which is also great.. trinity01.wmv.

jonathan dough

“The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).

Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.

First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.

This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.

A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.

But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1

41

John 20:28 response to Garyneal

by Blue Grass in

(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).

(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).

everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.

jonathan dough

Why should I take you word for that?

BLUE GRASS: You wouldn't have to take my word for it if you had any knowledge of the Greek language.

To assert that Thomas wasn't talking to anyone, when it is obvious in any translation, in any language, including the 1st century Greek

BLUE GRASS: How can you say that when you can't even read the first century Greek? I do find it silly that people with no knowledge of the Greek are telling me I'm wrong. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong at least post a link or give a source of a person with knowledge of Greek who disagrees with what I say.

ME: We don't need to have knowledge of the Greek language to prove you're wrong because there is a long history of Bible scholars with expertise in Greek far better than yours who have paved the way ahead of us. Whatever translation of whatever Bible, you are making a dangerous assumption that THOSE people don't know their Greek. You might have left the Society but you are still thinking like them, shifting the burden and making it personal, making US learn Greek. That's pretty far-fetched. Whether the Catholic Church, or one of the Reformed Churches, or Vine's dictionary of Greek, THEY prove you wrong. That's established. You are the one who needs to prove them wrong, and you can't. You really need to apply some common sense on this. Thomas was speaking to Jesus. Can you name any credible scholar who disagrees with this?

What is your point? I'm not trying to be mean, but I get the feeling you are denying Christ's true nature. That he was, and is, God. And if that is your goal you need to look at all of the information in that regard and draw your conclusions in that light. Start here if you want to know the truth on this: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

BLUE GRASS: P.S. I have no idea why you guys keep bringing up JWs and the Watchtower, especially since I haven't step foot inside a Kingdom Hall in nearly 3 years.

You are defending them. What's your angle?